Talk Summary

5 things you must know about the @Facebook Meta re-branding and how it affects you!

00:00 Shilpi: Hello, everyone let me introduce all our participants from the DataEthics4All Leadership Council. Hi, Sam, hello Kevin, Susanna hey, hi, hello so today we are going to start a new series really excited about it, Ethics 1st LinkedIn Live talks and the first topic today is something on everyone’s mind, Facebook Meta – why did Facebook change the name to Meta and how does this affect us? 

That will be the conversation of today, please join us, we are able to take your comments Live here, so please join us and leave your comments we are Live on Facebook, YouTube, as well as LinkedIn, so send us your questions comments, feedback – we have a QR code to join our community on the right if you like what you see here, and you want to be a part of this discussion,  up, down here right now so my other right  [Laughter]  it gets mirrored so yeah please, take a look at that all right everyone ready panel is ready  [Laughter]

3:57 Shilpi: Yes so let’s start with the first question that is on everyone’s mind, what do you think of Facebook Meta and why do you think Facebook decided to change its name to Facebook Metaverse, all of a sudden?

5:17 Shilpi: Okay so, Kevin thinks it’s a marketing move,  Susanna what do you think?

5:22 Susanna: It is a marketing move, it is a business move and it is a legal move and it’s also a PR move – they just want to distance themselves from the product itself but it has other you know reasons behind the scenes,  Susanna, Sam what do you think?

5:40 Sam: Yeah I think it is it’s a move away from the criticism they’ve faced and it’s a bit of a distraction so it’s definitely a marketing move and they’re wanting to promote new products that they’ve invested in as an organization, so VR and AR and it’s engaging younger audiences as well. So I think it’s important, for them in this area.

6:04 Shilpi: So here’s what I think, that I agree with all of you – it is yes a PR move, yes it is a legal move, yes it is a marketing move,  yes it is some sort of distraction, which we will get into –  in our next question, but most of all I don’t think you can come up with something like this overnight – so this might be something that they, it must have been in the pipeline for a very long time

6:39 Shilpi: That they must have been thinking about doing something beyond just the social media platform and yes, they have always invested in like different projects but none of the projects have taken such strong limelight that you know we have heard about them

6:47 Shilpi: So we all remember and associate Facebook with its one social media platform and after you know it was started in 2006 and so it has come a long way and since then I think it’s time for the next version of not just the platform but also the company to evolve as a natural progression of where it should go, it came at a time when they may have felt like there is a need to speed up that process because of the fire and the data that they have been, more so now than ever and so I feel that this might have been in the pipeline but they expedited the timeline,  for the purpose that we all know and we’ll get into this next question as you know.

Shilpi: do you think it’s a diversion tactic, 

Sam? We will start with you

7:38 Sam: Yeah I think it is a diversion tactic Shilpi, yeah –  they, I think Facebook is starting to realize as well that they’re seeing a decline in a younger audience,  I think that’s also part of it on the Facebook platform and it’s just a way for them to continue to expand this market in this area and use the data that they’ve obviously collected on the platform, as well so yeah, partly

08:08 Shilpi: Yeah, absolutely Susanna?

08:13 Susanna: it is a diverse tactic, yes but you know I don’t think the people behind  Facebook are like you know idiots or anything they would actually know that when you bring up a blurry branding yeah

Susanna: re-branding at a time like this people are always going to jump on you and say, hey you are just trying to divert us from what we are doing here behind the scenes whatever is the illegal stuff we are trying to do

It’s a cover-up but they know that they know this could be a bad PR move but they still went ahead with it.

08:48 Susanna: So that tells me that it’s not just a diversion tactic, this was in the works for many years because, but from I think almost like five years ago the  younger audience started leaving  Facebook  and the older ones

Susanna: the more radical ones took over the platform  and we saw the effects of that the  impact of that during this election, so they knew that this was you know coming along the way they need to somehow appeal to the younger audience

Susanna: which was  moving to things that were more not real the filters on Instagram and all of that they liked that kind of stuff so now,  this was you know natural progression, so you know it’s it is a distraction,  you know diversion but that PR people do know that we will catch on that and we will you know bang on them in on them and say hey you’re trying to distract us  they knew that but they still went ahead with that

09:43 Shilpi: so yeah it was in the pipeline, yeah I mean Snapchat came up with these filters, and like if I look at today’s younger audience from our youth council and the youth that we work with we have had these discussions on Facebook disinformation and polarization in our town hall meetings and yes, they have clearly mentioned that you know they do like to have friends who constantly post something on social media

Shilpi: and they are looking for these, how beautiful I look and they are checking it constantly for their friends to say, oh this picture of you looks, makes you look so beautiful so it is such a negative kind of  connotation where you know we are looking for external validations

Shilpi: constantly, and our next generation is doing that and as you can see, as you told Susanna as you mentioned our kids are not on Facebook they don’t want to be there they are on Instagram and that’s the whole reason why Instagram and Snapchat and Tick Tok are the three main platforms or of the future generation and that’s one of the reasons why Facebook acquired Insta and who knows, wants to acquire others but and Whatsapp as well. So definitely it’s not something,  Kevin do you want to add something to this?

11:04 Kevin:  Yeah no I would just add to both I mean all of your points there that this was definitely a diversion tactic,  it honestly doesn’t make too much sense that Facebook would be the first one to the market, especially when it’s not a technology inherent or inherently technology company, it’s it was born as a social network and then it’s competing with Google, Microsoft even Amazon is more technology, I would say so if it’s the first one there’s definitely a reason why and to me honestly I think there was  never going to be a right time for them  to come out with it but it was always going to happen

11:44 Kevin: So for them, it’s also a very strategic move to be the first mover to the market, I think there was never really a good time but I think the best time is was today like that’s the mentality right yeah.

11:58 Shilpi: I mean we have seen more and more of these video games and all of these that our younger generation is so addicted to like the 360s and all these gaming stations and even online video games that they like to play what are some of you know biggest ones out there?

12:17 Kevin: Roblox it is….

12:18 Shilpi: come again?

12: 20 Kevin:  just, in my opinion, they are in Metaverse already because you can build games inside that game yeah, everyone’s heard of Roblox but that’s something that’s going on it’s like the Minecraft of a decade ago!

12:34 Shilpi: yeah Minecraft,  and yeah so it’s like I mean AR we are augmented reality and virtual reality somebody there’s some disturbance um AR and VR is such a bigger umbrella-like, you could fit anything under that umbrella right you can have banking experience as an AR experience you could be not just  playing sports or actual games but you could do real-life stuff, feed  somebody or do banking or buy something shopping

Shilpi: all of these could be gamified in their own way like personified and gamified as someone else

13:18 Shilpi: So it is a very big umbrella huge universe that they are moving into um and so if do you guys think that  Facebook by changing its name and they have made a claim that Facebook itself the platform will remain to be called  Facebook

Shilpi: do you think at some point they are going to fold Facebook and what will happen to our dataif they do what do you think about that?

13:45 Susanna: 100% sure that it will soon reincarnate itself into something else it may even be called Facebook or not  but you know because Facebook or Metaverse right now doesn’t have it has any legal liability to hold true to its word that it won’t hold Facebook away they can’t change that in any time  and fold it but I’m hundred percent sure  it will be folded into it into the Metaverse and  it will have a digital you know virtual reality component to it okay

Susanna: And the data will be used to create digital twins of all of us who will all you know those who are not knowledgeable enough will obtain and say yes to that and that’s what they are betting on!

14:35 Shilpi: I actually don’t know if you know this, I don’t know if this is an Indian theory or in our mythology, it just said that there are seven people identical to you in the whole world like at a given time.

There are seven identical people, I mean they may be different ages, they may be at different Geo locations

14:58 Shilpi: So if that was true then who knows this Metaverse will create not just twins we already have seven out there seven Susanna’s out there already so who knows!

What do you think about the re-branding and whether it would go away? Sam?

15:15 Sam:  I don’t I think Facebook will as a platform will not go away completely, I think there is still a market for Facebook and I think until obviously we know that legislation you know it gets put in place and we have legislation around data protection, more data protections the platform will be used, the data that Facebook has will  potentially then be migrated over to the  the mixed reality world of Metaverse, I  think there’s definitely going to be demand there but I do think we’ll stay for quite some time until Metaverse is you know is realized,  you know in this among its customers and I know also I also think that  there’s going to be companies  particularly you know we’ve mentioned  Microsoft we’ve mentioned gaming organizations, gaming companies, e-commerce platforms that might be  interested in working with Metaverse and  being part of it  that  will want to continue  you know utilizing the platform and also  moving over to Meta as well so the data will still be the data will  still be there, um so yeah I don’t think it will yet

16:33 Shilpi: I agree with you I think see at least a few of our previous generations like our parents right and our grandparents as well as our generation I think is still on the platform.

So it still makes sense until we die at least you know there is some truth to that some validity in that platform and it may still be there they may evolve they will definitely evolve.

Shilpi: I do think yeah whether they change the name or the look and feel of the GUI or the UX or whatever that may look like it they may change the features are always added and removed but yeah it will stay.

Shilpi: But one thing that Facebook has not openly said and is not doing today openly like actually selling data of customers

Shilpi: Yeah they do that through their apps or you can integrate with their APIs or their play store whatever, that may be like you can indirectly make use of the marketing that ad targeting,  right

Facebook is sitting on a gold mine of data and of all of the customers of like a billion people of the world customers out of the seven we have one billion or two billion people whose customers

Shilpi: Even ghost profiles they even have ghost profiles of people who are not even on Facebook, even my grandmother might be on some kind of profile of my grandmother might be on Facebook, right?

17:55 Shilpi: So  they might be able to then actually chop and chunk that data and sell it off to like different vendors for different purposes  before they so, I’m sure they’re really going to milk it completely before they decide to shut it down so yeah

Shilpi: yeah it’s not going to be soon and like you said until Metaverse really takes off it’s not going to happen, they’re still making a lot of money from ad targeting and showing ads and doing all sorts of posts and things which they will continue to do

Shilpi: I just hope that they use it better you know they tweak their algorithm for everything that they have been under the fire they tweak their  algorithm and for the better protect their customers and do right by them 

 Shilpi: so that brings us to the next question where you know the new Metaverse promises to have everything and it may have everything who knows what, all it will have like from shopping to virtual reality games and we talked about all of this, so is it, will it be like a parallel universe like we are living in this real-life universe but will it be like a  parallel universe, where you know it’s it’s a virtual world and all the family and friends that I’m connected to today on Facebook, will they automatically be connected because as you all know one of the biggest pain points in adopting a new platform is building this network from scratch right you literally whether it is signals or  Whatsapp or whatever maybe you have to literally manually either bring your contacts or slowly like Linkedin when we all started we know how that was like we it was hard to even get  500 people to be connected to right?

19:40 Shilpi: So it is a painstaking process to really get on that bandwagon, so is Facebook going to help us with that like I, are all my friends and family members automatically going to be on Metaverse, or what do you think?

19:56 Sam:  Yeah I think you  will be able to do all those things, you will be able to shop, you’ll be able to socialize with your  friends as you would on the platform now  but  in VR and it would possible  for you  to invite your family or friends to join you, I think, and you’ll potentially then  be able to invite your network,  I don’t think you’ll need to build your network up again from you know from the beginning um but we don’t know that yet so for me my opinion I think you  might have that option

20:30 Shilpi: yeah exactly yeah we will exactly,  all right Kevin do you want to what are you doing?

20:38 Kevin: Okay so there’s a big  technology barrier though I mean I’m hoping that in the future everyone can figure out the Metaverse one day but I still would say that some people might not have that access

Kevin: maybe it’ll be even as simple as not having access to the internet right? Something new but then that is also solving itself in the future I guess, but yeah I would say technology is key and also interest yeah I know that as an introvert I would love it if it would help me socialize better because that is one of my biggest weaknesses I would say that’s I mean that’s one way that  Linkedin has helped me tremendously over the past few years is connecting with people, right it’s so easy to just connect with someone and not look like a complete creep,  but I’m very curious to know what it’ll be like on the Metaverse when you just go up to someone and add them as a  friend, or and I’m guessing on the Metaverse you can go up to someone’s house and like knock on their door, now  I don’t know like I’m very curious to know how this will work, maybe it’ll be less awkward to knock on a stranger’s house and like for that stranger to even invite you inside because it’s the Metaverse what could go wrong right? Like I’m really curious to know how that  would be

21:53 Shilpi: yeah what do you think Susanna?

21:57 Susanna: absolutely I think I know it’s easy adoption from Facebook’s point of view it’s easy adoption. So one billion users on Facebook alone  and then you have  Insta and then you  know what’s up you know they could  easily you know I have with the adopt the platform to you know

Susanna: incorporate the  people who are already there it’s not  like you have to now sign up it’s your  entire network is already there just you know make up your own avatar world and  your digital world  and that is what they are betting on

Susanna: I believe I don’t think they would be creating another separate one and saying you now have to add one migrate everything I don’t think so I  think it will be easy migration and  that’s what they are betting on

22:40 Shilpi:  Yeah and I agree with all of you, yeah, I mean  that would be the simplest choice like  one click of a button do you want to  import all bring invite all your friends  and family like your entire network to  Metaverse and you just say yes without  even reading the 40-page document as to  what they’re going to do and how they’re  going to use that and yes like yes okay,  I want to meet my mom here I want to  meet my best friend here and there  you go there you have it right my  brother my sister or my children

23:13 Susanna:  especially you know the older population like my parents you know they wouldn’t even know what that means, yes and their age group every one of their friends it’s its kind of you know good for them in a  way they will be able to connect and talk but you know I still like just last week ago my dad you know clicked on an Amazon 27 year anniversary coupon or something and forwarded it to everyone and it was a  scam, oh and he forwarded to all of his contacts and I had to now go and clean out his account to reset the password and do that and he knows none of that and this is what’s going to be happening. So you asked you know will you have we have all your friends in the Metaverse, not Susanna she won’t come there you won’t come back

24:06 Shilpi: Facebook you better watch out the  Susanna’s of the world are not going to  be on your platform  you better have an alternative tactic to  bring them on, so I actually feel I  agree with you it will either be the  really elderly generation or it would be  the really younger generation who will  be you know kind of sucked into this  world sooner,  I think the younger will be the first to adopt it and with them, they will bring like the  Tick Tok, the Tick Tok users will  be the first users to probably adopt Meta, I mean who knows time will tell,  right this is speculation but I think because they are already gaming in other  worlds and other platforms to them this  will  feel like the natural first choice of  adoption  and it would be good to see their  friends there

24:59 Shilpi: So they will be, they will  adopt it and then we’ll see if they would want to invite their parents there  and then network there and then we’ll  find out  all right we I mean we could go on and  on

25:11 Shilpi: I’m going to end with one last question um do you think Metaverse will follow better data privacy as well as algorithmic guidelines and try to do right by their users protect the users

Put users above profits and everything that has come under the fire what is your opinion, what do you think? Are they going to change are they going to do right by their people?

25:38 Susanna:  No,  no

25:44 Sam: I am not confident

25:46 Kevin: Unless they become a nonprofit out of nowhere, it’s impossible for them to do that, they know that you know they’ll get money at the expense of people’s lives right? And that’s what  they’re they’re kind of doing I think  they’re exploiting people even further  by doing this because now you have to give even more information than you had  to before

26:06 Kevin: I mean one of the things I’m very curious about and concerned about is the verification process because to Susanna’s point if she decides to stay at home and not come on the Metaverse like stay in her actual real home and not the Metaverse

Kevin: What stops somebody else

from posing as her?

26:26 Kevin: Yeah,  I mean they might have, I mean maybe a  really close friend of hers has all of  her information there’s like basic high-level personal details they can pretend  to be her right,  yes but I’m guessing  there will be a verification process,  that’s even more strict than it is right now,  that’ll require you to have things like  you know um your fingerprints

26:44 Shilpi: yeah like SSN and  you know all these personal  identifications

26: 49 Sam & Susanna: Biometric data, Biometrics, right yeah,  yeah. Yeah to get the blue tick check on Twitter and Facebook, you have to give your blue social security number

27:59 Shilpi: Yeah, yeah you have to give a lot of data away yes

27:04 Kevin: And I believe that’s what the  verification process will be like it has  to be strict right to prevent this from  happening

27:10 Shilpi: So basically what I’m hearing  is that in a parallel universe which is  all virtual there will  there will be facts to check that we are  a real person and all our personal data  will be we will have to give away to get  that

27: 28 Sam: yeah,  yeah that is captured as well yeah, that’s true yeah

27:30 Shilpi: Oh my goodness. So we are entering a really really very perspective world where you know, who knows what’s going to happen, do you think ever the virtual and the real-life worlds are going to merge together?

27:44 Susanna:  I mean I don’t think that’s a  futuristic question they already have right, yeah and they already have on our social media platforms and already our you know virtual and you know real are emerged to create an expert

28:00 Shilpi: to this extent where this…

28:07 Sam: there is a there’s this completely different world where we can just transition, yeah. I do think there’s going to be a role for augmented reality in VR in our lives and but I don’t think there’ll be a full transition to it in my lifetime, I don’t think I don’t know what you guys think? I think they’ll be here

28:26 Shilpi:  I think if anything we should roll back, dial it back to like becoming more authentic and more real in life

Like, first of all, I disagree with what Kevin  is saying he’s not an introvert, I don’t  consider him an introvert  but of course, that’s what he thinks of  himself and it is true like so many  people have so many friends on social media and they make me they receive like such a popular personality or a person and in real life, it’s hard for them to  go up and even hi to a stranger or even  talk to someone right and so it’s like we live in this  world where social media seems to be  uh,  to be guiding our life like it seems to  be more popular and so if anything I think we need to  dial back and become more authentic, more real, like stop virtual handshakes and forget about the virtual reality world all together go out and i

Shilpi: If Covid taught us anything  it’s like you know say hello to your  neighbor go in person and you never know when you will be stuck inside your home  for two years right,  that’s all happened

29:32 Shilpi: So for those kinds of things yes  AR/VR is good but until that is not there  we better start enjoying the life that  we have been given

29: 49 Kevin: I think my perspective is probably it  might contradict all of yours but  I see a world where with all these  things happening and maybe I mean  hopefully god forbid another Covid  breakout, um, I  see a world especially  with climate change  um  where we might not even have the luxury  of stepping out anymore,  yeah I mean we’ve all seen the  apocalyptic movies and those things  right and we’ve all seen black mirror  and now we have the Metaverse, so  what’s to say that we don’t live a  post-apocalyptic

30: 12 Shilpi: yeah if we go on Mars and we have to do this. I agree that  that that would be a good way to save ourselves to enjoy life without feeling  like we’ve lost everything and  other than that if no forwards nothing  happens then I think we should go out  and enjoy real meeting real people and  enjoy the real shopping experience

30:37 Kevin; we should start by meeting each other first

30:41 Susanna: and to you know before we end it  I just want to say something you know  introverts are the smartest most  creative  people and they are not intro  as a thing is not a bad thing at all it  is a normal part of who you are and that  is from a high functioning introvert  myself  so you know it’s not a bad thing

31:02 Shilpi: this might be a discussion for next time so what defines an introvert because I  don’t see you both as those that you define yourselves, uh so I think that this calls for a very interesting discussion for next time join us and we’ll find out what an introvert is all right everyone thanks you for joining in and uh don’t forget to uh scan the QR code and join us,  I’m not even going to try this okay  Kevin has got it, yeah right oh Susanna oh all of you got it okay, all right!

31: 38 Shilpi: So well then take care, uh thanks for tuning in, take care bye!  DataEthics4All Ethics 1st live LinkedIn talks, bye everyone,  bye!

Talk Summary

Do you have team members with diverse personalities? Do you think these differences in personalities lead to differences in job opportunities, career pathways, and growth? Come, Join Us as we discuss this in our Ethics 1st ᵀᴹ LinkedIn Live Talk by the DataEthics4All leadership team.

00:48  Shilpi: Hello everyone LinkedIn, Twitter, and YouTube, we are live, DataEthics4All live is back with one more episode of the Ethics 1st live talks where we bring bite-sized talks on Ethics 1st and what it means to be an Ethics 1st leader, what does it mean to bring ethics by design into the workforce,  into everything that you’re doing whether it is a product whether it’s service, whether you’re building a solution, whatever role you are in – what does it mean to be an Ethics 1st leader, and joining me today on this talk, a very interesting talk we have in store for you today and joining me are my fellow leaders from the  DataEthics4All leadership team and I’m going to quickly introduce each one of you and here’s Susanna, hi, Susanna you want to give a quick introduction?

01:46 Susanna: I am part of the leadership council awesome leadership counselor at Dataethics4all all and by my work definition I am a cognitive science AI ethics researcher, an artist, and a writer so I want to say all of that because today’s topic is about AI

 

02:04 Shilpi: Yes yes absolutely, Sam?

02:05  Sam: Good evening everyone, I’m also a part of the leadership council and leadership team,  I’m a teacher by profession I have a background in data management, data analytics as well and I’m really looking forward to learning about  how we can work together as introverts and extroverts  in a diverse environment

02:07  Shilpi: Yeah very interesting conversation today, Kevin you want to introduce yourself?

02:10 Kevin: Yeah hey everyone I’m Kevin Diaz, I’m also part of the leadership council, my professional background is in analytics in advertising, and maybe by that you can tell whether I’m an introvert or extrovert, my educational background is actually in mechanical engineering how about now?! [Laughter]

03:05  Shilpi: Well I’m now to stop that Kevin, so I mean being an engineer doesn’t mean that you are an introvert,  so I didn’t give a little bit of my background, but because it’s about you know team dynamics and our backgrounds as well as personalities and what role we should be choosing, 

Shilpi: I’ll say a little bit about myself as well,  so I have studied engineering believe it or not I’m an engineer did a master’s in design, visual communication and then practiced photographyas a professional photographer, did my first entrepreneur start-up as a professional photographer, videographer as well as a collage maker

Shilpi: and I did a lot of design consulting as a graphic designer, practiced 20 years of consulting as a marketer, worked as a marketer for big and small firms

Shilpi: I have taught at Stanford and Berkeley as a professional, adjunct instructor in Business and Marketing and then I have been a mentor to Nasdaq and the MIT 100k launch as well as a few other start-up accelerators all across the globe and then founder of DataEthics4All

Shilpi: and to have found you guys with the team! 

04:50 Susanna: Oh, we are having some trouble with LinkedIn, should we come back again or do you start?

04:53  Shilpi: It says [Music] it says we are Live but it’s giving me that we are having trouble streaming to LinkedIn this may be an issue on Linkedin’s end we’ll keep trying, please check LinkedIn to ensure the stream looks okay can one of us?

05:12  Shilpi: Yeah all right no worries we are doing this Live and if this doesn’t work then we will have the recording and we’ll upload the recording so we’ll keep going so there you have it just among us

Shilpi: the leadership council or leadership team at DataEthics4All, now DataEthics4All foundation, we have such diversity in you know our thought process where we come from our educational backgrounds our geographic locations, our ages, where we are to today in life you know there’s just so many we bring everything to the table

Shilpi: and that’s the fun discussion that we want to have today about how personality and diversity and personality play a role in the workforce and whether one personality is better than the other in terms of opportunities for career growth, so let’s jump right in this is very exciting, so let me start with the first very basic question, I think most people in the world understand that probably there are many more archetypes but

Shilpi: people understand that there are mainly two big buckets of types of people, one is the introverts and the other is the extroverts, and all the other 16 personality archetypes or whatever how many there may be, they’re always different types of Briggs Meyers whatever, that maybe they bring up very different types of archetypes but two big buckets  

Shilpi: What does each of them mean to you, Sam?

06:52  Sam: Yeah I think I’ve been looking at a lot of different resources over the past few hours and a few days and I think for me an extrovert is someone that is confident and approachable and open as well, to new things and I think I feel,  as I’ve reflected on obviously both types

Sam:  it also is about being you know comfortable in unusual situations or unknown situations and I think, yeah I think they’re the types of key kind of key characteristics I would associate with an extrovert

Sam: I don’t know about you guys and I’d say for an introvert it’s someone that is reflective, looks inwards for peace and guidance, and someone that is quite quiet, and maybe quite shy but again they’re the things that you think about when you look at you know yourself and other individuals, you know, so yeah I think they’re the two types of kind of descriptions I give for both yeah.

08:01  Shilpi: So okay thank you, Sam,  Susanna do you want to add to that?

08:08 Susanna: What does it mean to me personally, I’m, I without looking at you know all the documentation and all the research, talking about me

Susanna: personally it reminds me of the Auguste Rodin sculpture,  ‘The Thinker’,  if you have seen that, that’s what an introvert means to me, it’s like somebody who just sits by himself and is thinking, always lost in deep thought

 

08:35  Shilpi: That is by him right which one is the Stanford sculpture garden, yes? 

08:40  Susanna: Yeah yes that’s the one, that’s the most famous I think one of his most famous cultures, everyone knows he’s looking like this it’s not like. There are not 10 people around him standing around him or you know holding up their hands, you know hugging and taking a selfie or nothing of that sort, to me that’s the other end

Susanna: for me that is was introvert means somebody who’s more lost in deep thought and who likes to contribute at a deeper level, than just jumping in on everything so that’s what it means to me.

09:14  Shilpi: Okay so you just, you’re saying extroverts just jump in on everything,

09:19  Susanna: Yes totally

09:23  Shilpi: Okay, Kevin?

09:25 Kevin:  I actually, I love that analogy because I remember once telling someone you know about what made me choose analytics and like I just tell myself that analytics chose me, I think to myself that a synonym of analyze is overthinking,  oh, that’s what I like to do in my free time so obviously I’m going to do it between nine to five as well, and do it well, but yeah obviously overthink and analyze are applied in different contexts but at the very basic level they’re almost similar, and well if you ask me what’s the difference between an introvert and extrovert, an extrovert I would picture a party, an indoor party and you know-how like you have the center and you have the outsides like the walls

Kevin: I would say that the extroverts will be closer to the center and the introverts would be closer to the walls, that’s something that I can visualize when I think about the difference 

10:29  Shilpi: Yeah very nice,  like you all defined introverts and extra extroverts in your own very unique ways, and yeah very true,  I mean I don’t know if it is true or not but basically yeah the way the world perceives extroverts is like yeah they’re always like high energy, like I could be probably be classified as an extrovert, where you know I feel like if the whole day I’m sitting by myself and there are no meetings or if I don’t meet anyone then by the end of the day I’m a little sad

Shilpi: I’m I feel like oh it’s not enough I’m not really happy but when I’m talking to people I’m like this energy excites me and I get energy by connecting with people and that really makes my day

 

Shilpi: like okay if I just had a chat with even my gardener if nothing else, I’ll go out and chat with my gardener, my neighbor or somebody walking on this street and that’ll be like okay something, my day is made I’ll come back energized and I will get on to the next thing, so I kind of understand you know textbook definitions as well as how different people work in different ways and how they get energy from different people, so I just classified myself how do you see each of you like, Kevin also kind of led to that but maybe Susanna and Sam,  how do you see yourself on the spectrum, I know somewhere I read that it’s a big spectrum, and it’s not like you are it’s not black or white, but most people classify themselves as one more than the other, but then there is always a range,  so where do you see yourself on that spectrum?

 

 

 

12:26  Susanna: I think whether it’s on Facebook or you know on Medium or somewhere I put myself as a high functioning introvert that is my official title, I’m sure it’s still there somewhere you know that’s I fall on the high functioning level of introverts but the low functioning is the people who it’s actually the statue itself you know, somewhere in a forest they know another statueoriented statue put somewhere, in a place, like with nobody, like I don’t want anyone around,  but not everyone falls into that neatly into that so what does high functioning introvert mean that’s a new term for me?

13:07 Susanna: High functioning, low functioning means you know high functioning means somebody who is an introvert but will manage to survive in an extrovert’s world

Susanna: you know we’ll come to meetings we’ll show up and we’ll talk and we’ll and be you know engaging will engage in conversations we’ll try out new things, can still do that without damaging themselves mentally and physically but that’s high functioning, but then there are some introverts who if they do that they will be like you know completely burnt out or you know or may even also feel emotionally disturbed at some level, but that is the terminology 

13:53 Shilpi: That is very interesting I always thought that even though somebody is an introvert they have good ideas,  they just don’t like to lead things like they may not feel comfortable leading a meeting or being a public speaker or being in front of people

Shilpi: but they do have great ideas and they collaborate well and they do things, yes they like me time more than others more than extroverts they like me time they like independent work but they still like to work with people so, yeah I mean

14:25  Susanna: No I don’t, I don’t want to be left alone on an Island or anything, yeah that’s why I’m surprised that why do you add the high functioning? Like aren’t most introverts also like

Shilpi: everybody is high functioning in terms of, yes they function well, that is high functioning right? If we don’t function well then we are not even capable of doing it

14:50  Susanna: It’s terminology borrowed from the autism spectrum, in the autism spectrum a low functioning non-verbal, is at the lower end and then high functioning is that people who are on the autism spectrum, but you know you can’t even tell that they are on the autism spectrum, so that’s it that terminology, it is borrowed from that,  that’s why

15:19  Shilpi: So why are we comparing introverts with extroverts?

15:19 Susanna: We are not comparing them,  no it’s just the high functioning low functioning is borrowed from that knowledge 

15:22 Susanna: Very interesting, what about you Sam, where do you see yourself on the spectrum?

15:26  Sam: Yeah I like the idea that Susanna suggested that she’s a high functioning introvert because I think as someone that has always identified myself as being quite confident and outgoing over the years

Sam: I do feel that there is an element of low functioning extroversion or maybe anxious extroversion and I think I’m in that area.  I consider myself an extrovert, I’m quite approachable and confident around new people and, but I do feel like I need time alone to focus and to regroup

Sam: I do get my energy from my students,  I miss the interaction I have during term time and actually during even a work meeting, I do need that contact with other people and I need to have those conversations

Sam: yeah and that interaction and that motivates me and although during Covid I’ve experienced some developments in my own skill set, I think I’ve developed that ability to reflect and to sit back and think about and be more, be more focused on what I, you know, I’m doing, as you know on a daily basis, yeah but naturally, I think I go, I’d go towards the extrovert part, but I’ve learned that moment of reflection and peace is quite important in my life right now, yeah it wasn’t

17:08 Shilpi: True even extroverts need to sit back and reflect on what they are doing they can’t be good leaders if they are always like go all the time

Shilpi: they have to come up with strategy and vision and introspection and make sure that their team is with them understands their vision and how to lead them that takes a lot of thought if you can’t just do it without, Kevin why do you think you are an introvert, I understand the analyze and the overanalyzed part but is there anything you want to add more to it?

17:40 Kevin: I personally think that I’m an introvert because I tend to be very conscious of myself and I can say that about different scenarios like I think ever since I started working from home I’ve realized that even more so in a very in an in a weird way, I would say you know what I wanted to ask you guys this question but I think um this is actually the best time to ask it’s kind of random, but yeah 

18:06 Shilpi: Yeah, we are live!

18:08  Kevin: When you guys speak you know on a video call and then you’re like you’re in the zone you have a really good, you know train of thought and you’re talking for like a good minute or two, do you and you look at the camera or you look towards the screen do you look at yourself or do you look at the other videos, like the other people, which one do you do more of do you feel because I person let me start, first I personally feel like I spend eighty percent of my time actually is the center of my focus on myself which is a bit weird and I don’t mean this because I’m vain in any way I definitely don’t like looking at myself in the mirror but for some reason, I’m focusing my attention on my own video versus everyone else’s

Kevin: I don’t know why I just find myself very conscious of the way I’m talking, the way my head is positioned or things like that like I’m looking out for those things versus looking at you know all the other wonderful faces on the screen, what are your thoughts on how you feel, find yourself speaking and looking?

19:11  Shilpi: I mean that is a very interesting observation Kevin and um I’m sure I’ll let others speak, I think that just like you said right like it we have been taught like a good orator is somebody who makes eye contact a good orator a good leader or whoever is standing in front of a group of people to be able to connect with their audience you need to make eye contact with as many people as possible if you lock your eye contact with just one person and you only make them feel like you’re doing this whole talk to them than others feel like left out neglected and that’s not a not the best way to deliver a message right

Shilpi: and in live scenarios, I would say that yeah so making eye contact with as many people as possible in the room is the best and so that’s what I try to do when I am on a video call I try to look at everybody else on the video call like more than myself but yes I will look at myself to make sure that you know I’m still in the frame and being okay but I will try to look at and also reading the room right

Shilpi: so basically trying to understand what people, are they bored are they interested? Should I stop here and go to the next or you know basically reading between the lines all those body language?

Shilpi: so I try to do that in person as well as in a video call as much, even though an only a very small portion of the body is visible 

20:51 Kevin: An interesting point because, if you think about it on a video call you’re never making eye contact ever, it’s impossible like right now I’m looking at you but it doesn’t look like it and right now I’m looking at me and it looks the exact same right true that is a truly interesting time 

21:07 Shilpi: Yeah so probably others will not know that you are looking at me or you’re looking at yourself a good point, but yeah I mean I do, that because I want to see whether you guys are enjoying this conversation or not, or you’re bored and maybe I should keep quiet 

21:27 Susanna: Actually, that’s actually good you know I don’t know examples of you know what an introvert an extrovert means because the reason why introverts when we give a public speaking engagement or something,  we like to focus on one area just lock eyes or somebody in the front and that’s where we keep our eyes on and we think the rest of the audience won’t notice that is then

Susanna: they say you know actually keep your eyes on the horizon fix on a point on the horizon so that you know it looks like you are looking at everybody those are all tricks we use as an introvert to not feel anxious when talking.

22:04 Susanna: When zoom came along we started looking at ourselves more instead of looking at the other people and actually there was a study that was done that actually found out that introverts were more emotionally drained because of looking at themselves because this is called the mirror effect like you are actually somebody is holding a mirror to your face, this never happens in real life we don’t walk around with the mirror to our face you know looking at ourselves when we talk but our brain, when it is processing that, is you know taxing us more than the extroverts because extroverts don’t bother looking at themselves they want to look at other people and they get their energy from everyone else so they tend to look at other people, so the zoom meetings don’t drain them out as much as it drains out introverts that’s something new today 

22:54 Sam: Yeah I know you mean, yeah I don’t tend to focus as much on my zoom video but if I need to focus that helps me, it helps me read again, refocus on what I’m doing, so yeah definitely 

23:10 Susanna: There’s a now a hide your view without you know turning off your camera you can hide your view on you so when you do that you don’t spend time looking at yourself which should help you actually but I don’t think it may not help introverts anyway because we are going to be drained out anyway without any 

23:30 Susanna: And if you are thinking about how I look or you want to see yourself then hiding from that probably won’t be effective

23:35 Shilpi: Right yeah this is fascinating, very interesting and I also struggle, with so I personally I feel I have never had this conversation openly about being an extrovert or an introvert with other people, even my friends or colleagues, so this is very interesting to me and sometimes I feel like I may think that I’m an extrovert but I have my low point, I shouldn’t say low points but difficult challenges as an extrovert as well. When I go to very large networking meetings, where I don’t know anybody when I do where I don’t walk in with a friend or I’m nobody I know I do feel a little lost like, yes the best strategy, like you know in the book in the playbook is to you just you can join any group and don’t worry about speaking out, just listen and the more you listen and yes I know all the rules like okay networking you don’t, you don’t want to talk about yourself or sell something you know, you want to connect with people and then let them be such an interesting person that they should ask you, like what do you do and you know that give me a business card, that’s like the networking 101, like don’t just go and talk, people don’t like people who talk about themselves so I know all that and that’s why I feel like okay if I’m not going to talk about myself and I’m not going to sell anything and I don’t know anybody and I can’t crack a joke because I don’t even know what’s going on and I just you know, what do you do like where do you put your hands and what do you do and when which group do you go and join and so that sometimes is a challenge, does that happen to any of you?

25:31  Susanna: All the time 

25:31 Sam: Yeah I think so, yeah I am if I may,  I’ve been in a situation before where I’ve been thinking which group do I speak to, who’s that who should I start having the conversation with you know, do I just listen, observe as you said, Shilpi, I think it’s really important to do that and then maybe then start the conversation after, but introducing yourself can be challenging, breaking the ice, it’s very, it is quite difficult yeah and even in big groups

Sam: I think in a smaller group in a convivial environment it’s quite nice to be able to meet new people but I think in a large group where you have maybe 60 guests yes it can be difficult for me yeah definitely, I move around and make my way but it takes time 

28:22 Shilpi: So, do you think that one personality versus the other has an edge in the workplace especially in the work environment towards getting better growth opportunities better positions, rising the corporate ladder is there a difference to like better team positions, getting customer-facing roles will come to roles later but like just in terms of opportunities

Shilpi: do you feel the world favors one type of personality or does the corporate environment favor one versus the other? Ah we can whoever want to jump in can go first 

29:07 Susanna: I definitely think it favors the extroverts those who are on the extrovert spectrum, score higher on that they are favored by the world in general by you know corporate promotions and you know leadership roles because automatically they speak up in meetings they lead meetings, they are more engaged they are able to connect with different people, network better you know even if the if everybody has an idea before an introvert even starts to speak, you know that how extrovert will be the one that will jump up and say that idea better or worse the person who first says it is always seen as the one that has come up with it, sometimes even in group presentations the introverts would be very happy to give the presentation opportunity to the extrovert in the room and when you present whatever the project when the entire team all our names would be on it but still

Susanna: the person who presented it would be seen as the one who led the whole thing

26:21  Susanna: Yeah it happens to me you know even in virtual conferences now when in 2020 all the virtual, all the conferences moved to virtual and they had all these new well you can be on the avatar and you can walk around initially when it first came around when I went to one of those conferences first, I did not know that the people who walk towards you they can actually you know to contact you and talk to you and then people were just like Susanna and they started talking

I got really freaked out who are you, how do you know my name? Is moving towards the booths and the walls and I thought okay that’s the safest place there are like you know bush you know images and icons there and then let’s say there was like if it says Ethics 1st LinkedIn live talks, there’s like a board or something even though it’s the only three words, I would stand there forever and as if I am reading the board, and then I left you to know I said you know, I’m going to park myself in near the bush and just you know so that people cannot make contact with me a lot, so at least two-three or four people started joining me near the bush!

27:45  Shilpi: They started talking to you again, they stood near the bush facing the walls,  I knew they were interested oh wow this is fascinating, okay so! 

27:55 Kevin:  I think we should we should identify the difference between an introvert and a creep in this case [Laughter] there is a difference, it’s not the same

28:03 Shilpi: Of course I mean you’re talking about like somebody who’s following you and like that’s a creep versus just moving away and keeping to yourself 

28:16 Kevin: There are similarities but it’s not the same 

33:26  Kevin: Right I think I think a good example if I’m remembering correctly is Mark Zuckerberg, but correct me if I’m wrong I believe I read somewhere that he’s an introvert yes he is, how weird and awkward was that video?  But he’s clearly trying and kudos to him for trying as an introvert you know yeah he’s trying to make eye contact, make it feel and look natural and clear,

Kevin: you could see that it was not that natural for him to speak that much and you know to articulate and that kind of thing, yes I think definitely resonates with him and I can totally understand where he’s coming from

Kevin: but yeah to Susanna’s point you have to kind of do it, certain points in your life and you know that you have to accept it, I think it’s all about moderation so for introverts just to Susana’s point we can’t do it as much as extroverts can but definitely, we it’s okay for us,  it’s just it boils down to energy capacity and things like that right so maybe a question for the audience is you know 

Kevin: What are the ways we can still as introverts, you know stand head to head or toe to toe with extroverts in terms of public speaking?

Kevin: because now with us you know being more technology-driven there are ways for us to like pre-record presentations and like that’s one idea right you don’t have to be in front of an audience live true and that’s probably what mark Zuckerberg also did, I don’t think even though it was streamed live we don’t know for sure if it actually was live,  and there’s a good chance it probably wasn’t so like things like that are ideas we can consider and explore further to help introverts in the realm of public speaking

35:19  Shilpi: That is a good point another thing I’m sorry Susanna did you want to add something to it?

35:25 Susanna:  I think you know he is right because in an emotionally safe space you guys are all now publicly speaking on this podium now and it’s reaching millions of people so you know technically we are, we are able to do that whether we are introvert or extrovert when we are around surrounded by friends so in a corporate world 

35:47 Susanna: I think that’s what we should aim for 

35:48 Sam: Yeah that’s great 

35: 49 Shilpi: That’s a very good point so basically, it’s I think we have all established the fact and we all agree to it that public speaking helps us helps anybody who is able to do it and yes at times extroverts also have to step outside their comfort zone

Shilpi: I remember when it when I started a podcast uh several years ago I had never even listened to one and I was not a podcast listener at all and I all of a sudden out of the blue that that’s what I do that’s how I am

Shilpi: I decided to Susanna she laughs at it because she knows that’s what I do all of a sudden,  I’ll be let’s do a hackathon, I’ve never attended one I’ve never entered anyone let’s do a hackathon because I feel like it no we should do one so that’s what we do then we then I go back and do all the research so then I did that but it was stepping out of my comfort zone

Shilpi: the point I was trying to make is, yes there are things and we know because doing this will help us, that’s why we take the extra effort to go that extra mile and that’s what I think, what you were all trying to say is, like even though, if somebody is an introvert because they know those opportunities are going to help them because otherwise how will others know that you did this work, or you have ideas and you need to be able to communicate and present to the senior leadership that this is you this is your idea, this is what you want to do, this is how you want to change or start in a new initiative

Shilpi: so yes if that means stepping outside the comfort zone and finding ways maybe pre-recorded as Kevin said is one,  from the leadership side

Shilpi: I think maybe we should encourage all personality types to be able to feel comfortable, to be able to share their views freely without being judged

Shilpi: Sometimes like if it’s not their native language it’s not their first language then also they may not feel very comfortable in speaking up publicly or in a team setting and so those I think as a team lead as a senior leader in an organization we need to constantly be aware of the different, different diversity and personality types in our team and encourage people who are not usually very open to coming up like speaking up on their ideas but definitely make sure that they feel heard and they feel that they’re valued and their opinion matters, all right 

38:39 Shilpi: So today is national STEAM and STEM day and DataEthics4All now, DataEthics4All foundation and we just started our new STEAM in AI program initiative, so who wants to tell a little bit more about that we’ll just give a little teaser and that will be the conversational topic for next week,  so we’ll just give our audience a little teaser on what steam in AI is

39:10 Susanna:   My own personal definition of steam in AI is somebody asked me recently are you a woman in STEM,  I mean after all the women in tech, women in AI, they are now horrible women in stem, and I was like you know no I am not a woman in STEM, 

Susanna:  I would rather prefer to be called a woman in STEAM because without arts and without sociology, I don’t see myself in in the realm of science because to me both of them are integrated together

Susanna: so that’s so I would like to announce myself today on this platform as a woman in STEAM,  that you already are women and even Kevin is a supporter of even though man, a man but a big supporter of steam in AI because, yeah he is part of this initiative yeah so, Sam and Kevin what would you like to say about our new steam and AI initiative ?

40:10 Sam: Yeah I think we could, following on what Susanna said,  it’s actually encompassing our FREE STEM tutoring initiative, which is looking at not just the traditional stem subjects but bringing in sociology and the arts and social sciences and celebrating those and the humanities and how important they are and for you know for our younger generation for us going forward and for our Ethics 1st leaders, yeah and I mean our initiative is really to try and encourage young people to look at both parts of that spectrum if you like and work in, work potentially across all disciplines you know whether it’s in a team or as in a role I think yeah, I think that’s what I would say and there’s a couple of key additional yeah subjects we’ve got, the arts and engineering in there as well yeah and mentoring, yeah outside of STEM, yeah that’s what I would say

41:13  Kevin: I think arts is very important and it’s what brings the human aspect to technology because so far like within STEM there’s no I mean I would say that there’s no human element to it,  it’s very science-y, very technology stem but

Kevin: thanks to arts now we’re also engaging advertising in my opinion because… you can apply you know the whole human aspect the most

Kevin: I think ever since we went from studying behavior to influencing and changing behavior over the past decade, arts is very important you know, like to Susana’s point sociology is an important concept to understand and to apply within stem so 

41:59 Shilpi: Absolutely yes and that’s why besides the traditional STEAM, which everybody knows is for science,  technology engineering mathematics arts, and mathematics we have added our own version of steam just like our DIET our AI Diet we can’t stay away from the double, but we also wanted to bring the linear as well as non-linear careers to STEM that lead to AI now because there’s just so much that can lead to AI careers and it doesn’t have to be a linear STEM or STEAM path, that will get you there

We’ll talk more about what are the non-linear stem careers and things that we have added to our definition of steam in AI, more on that next week stay tuned!

Thanks, everyone for joining us, and thank you, Sam, Susanna, Kevin, very interesting conversation,  I learned a thing or two new today I hope our audience did as well and I hope our part of you guys also learned something, and let’s continue the conversation, in the comments please let us know what did you think about our discussion and what are your thoughts on all of this that we discussed today how introverts and extroverts, growth opportunities for them are different in the workplace and how we can improve opportunities of growth for introverts especially because it feels to me like extroverts are going to find their own way and they find opportunities for themselves but introverts need some help so let’s see how and what we can do to help them, thanks everyone take care bye-bye!

Talk Summary

DataEthics4All brings this Series of Weekly Ethics 1stᵀᴹ Live Talks for Leaders with an Ethics 1stᵀᴹ Mindset for Leaders who put People above Profits. Come, Join us for this lively and informative weekly discussion and food for thought on how to create an Ethics 1stᵀᴹ World: People, Cultures, and Solutions. On 2nd December we discussed what is Ethical Hacking? Is it Legal? How can Tech Companies take advantage of Ethical Hacking.

Talk Transcript

0:43 Shilpi:  Welcome back to yet another episode of ethics 1st live where we bring food for thought for ethics 1st minded leaders who put people above profits. I’m your host, Shilpi Agarwal, founder and CEO of DataEthics4All Foundation, and I will be joined by some of my leadership council members – Suzanna Raj, and Samantha Wigglesworth. 

6:37 Shilpi:  Let’s continue on with the topic, which is ethical hacking.

6:40 Shilpi:  So, what exactly is ethical hacking? What does it mean to you? I’ll do a follow up question about whether or not ethical hacking is even legal. We’ll start with you, Sam, today.

6:56 Samantha Wigglesworth:  Okay great, thank you.

7:00 Sam:  I think that when I first think of the words ‘ethical hacking’, it’s an individual, someone who has experience of working with computer systems and is quite talented with the programming, they’re quite knowledgeable. They’re the ones that are given the keys to access systems, and companies have permission to go and test out software, the programming languages for software, I think they might be computer systems as well. 

7:31 Sam:  So they’re the ones that go in and try to find vulnerabilities and holes in the system. They’ve got a lot of knowledge and the tools and experience to do that, and they’re given that permission. 

7:46 Shilpi:  Yeah, they’re given the official role to find vulnerabilities in the system.

7:51 Susanna Raj:  Yeah it is exactly that, they hire outsiders, primarily, you have to hire outsiders, it cannot be somebody who works within the company, and they cannot be given a role within the company. So you have to hire somebody from outside who doesn’t know the inner workings of your company or how the programme was coded. Basically, they come from outside and try to hack your system from outside. 

8:25 Susanna:  It is called ethical hacking because other hacking comes from somebody who comes and tries to hack their way in and access information. This is a company that knows that they’re going to be hacked, but they don’t know when or how or where they will be hacked, but they know that they have hired someone to hack the system. 

8:46 Susanna:  That is why the name ‘Ethical Hacking’ actually came into being, it’s something that is done with permission. 

8:56 Shilpi:  Yeah, I like this important distinction that you brought to the table.

9:15 Shilpi:  So it’s important to understand that when we are part of the security system, or the security team inside the company, within the company, we know all the passwords, we know everything, we know what we have built. And so, stress testing will always be done around it. For software testing, for example, if we know everything about how we built it, then the QA that’s why the QA team is different from the development team because that’s how they will be able to find those vulnerabilities. In the same way, whenever there is an international conflict, or there are terrorist organisations, they find cyber criminals to breach security systems, and they pay them to compromise national security or to extort huge amounts of money by injecting malware and denying access.

10:11 Shilpi:  That has led to the steady rise of cybercrime that leads to devastating results and scenarios, privacy leaks, as well as international government leaks. So that’s why this domain has become popular, and it is very upcoming now. 

10:33 Shilpi:  Companies themselves hire consultants, hire teams outside their company to bring them on board. 

10:41 Shilpi:  So they say, to catch a criminal, you have to think like a criminal, and when we wear a white hat, we seldom are able to think outside the box, we don’t have the tools to think like a criminal. Not that ethical hackers are criminals, but they are trained to be thinking like hackers who can damage our systems, and they have been trained to be able to think like that and to tell us the gaps in our security system. So it’s very interesting. 

11:16 Shilpi:  So you know how hacking has a very standard stereotype. Basically, it’s a person in a hood, sitting in the basement trying to hack a system. Whenever I think of hacking that picture comes to mind, right? Somebody in a hood sitting there, the dark web, with this black laptop, or what have you, and they are doing this illegal kind of activity. So has Ethical Hacking evolved in a way that has broken this stereotype? What do you think?

11:57 Sam:  I think a little, yeah, I think the fact that we as organizations now invest heavily in hiring, like Suzanna said, external support and hackers that are professional in their approach, we can see that we’ve moved away from that traditional image, I think, yeah, definitely. 

12:16 Sam:  I think there are a number of certified programmes that you can now be a part of and apply to pass and do the tests for, and I think that’s kind of elevated the profession, it’s a global certificate as well. Yeah, whether it’s with another professional role, whether it’s education, teaching, being a professional, medical professional, you have to redo exams in certain areas, or re-submit your tests in certain topics and pay again and renew your path, your certification. 

12:57 Sam:  That’s the kind of thing that you can do now, and I think that’s really helpful. So I think that helps, having that certification. I know that the council, the EC Council, does that as well. So that helps, and it supports bringing it out of the kind of traditional stereotypes that we’ve heard.

13:18 Shilpi:  Yeah, so I want to back you up on that ‘Certified Ethical Hacker’ thing that you mentioned from the EC Council. They have this credential programme, anybody can learn to become a Certified Ethical Hacker, and it is ANSI 17 or 24 compliant, it is also listed as a baseline certification in the US Department of Defence directive and is NSCS certified training. So it’s an upcoming field. 

13:52 Shilpi:  There are professionals who are actually getting into this and choosing ethical hacking as a professional career these days.

14:04 Shilpi:  I mean, it’s very interesting from where we started, and how hacking came to be and where it is today. So, how is ethical hacking helping the CIA SO’s today Susanna? The chief information security officers.

14:24 Susanna:  I think in many ways it could be helping them because in order to find out the vulnerabilities inside your company, and to hear of them before they cause damage, it’s a wonderful thing. I do believe Ethical Hacking should have some standards, and it’s great that they are bringing up those standards, yes. But to go back to the last question about the stereotype, that they will be somebody in a basement, it has moved away from that.

14:59 Susanna:  There is a vulnerability within ethical hacking itself that is not being talked about very widely. It has a lot of disadvantages, the same advantage that it has – the outsider, is the main biggest disadvantage to the company. 

15:17 Susanna:  It is a major loophole because an outsider is always an outsider. They don’t have the legal liabilities, the loyalty, or the integrity that the NDA and all those compliance regulations, all those things that you sign up for , you know, the 2200 pages that you sign, and somebody hires, you never bother to read all of them, you know, protect the company, and the company’s information, not only the company’s information, it’s our private data as well. 

15:48 Susanna:  So a bank hires an ethical hacker, the bank is, as we know, more reliable for the security of my data, but an ethical hacker doesn’t have the same liability. Even though we have standards now, it doesn’t solve that problem at all, it’s still a vulnerability. 

16:24 Susanna:  That name is very misleading – ‘ethical hacking’, there is nothing ethical about it.

16:31 Susanna:  You hire an outsider, you ask them to log into your system, they find 1000s of loopholes, they’re supposed to keep documentation of how many ports of entry they tried to enter and the hackers have to close all their loopholes so there are no entry ports, but that the system, see no one security system, one, cache them and backed. So all of those things they have to disclose and tell you about them, and maybe a hacker who was ethical by nature would actually tell you that, but there is no legal obligation for them to tell you everything. 

17:08 Susanna:  There is no legal obligation for them – they could just grab like 50 names, IDs and social security numbers out of the 50 billion that your company holds. They can do it, they can take it and they can use them, and one of those 50 could be me or you, and this is a major legal liability now.

17:30 Susanna:  There are court cases, and corporations are fighting with ethical hackers, and ethical hackers are being sued at many different levels. So it doesn’t look as rosy as you guys put it to me.

17:46 Shilpi:  That brings up an important point, Susanna, and I want the crux of our talks to be the ethics first mindset. So it doesn’t matter what contract you have signed, ethics first mindset is something that we all need to strive for, and that’s what we are trying to do. We are trying to celebrate the ethics first leaders of today and raise the next generation of ethics first leaders of tomorrow, because at the end of the day, just like you mentioned, you can hire an ethical hacker – their job is to find the vulnerabilities, they have a contract in place, but if they don’t have an ethics first mindset, then they can misuse that information to their advantage. How do we stop that? That can only happen on a personal level, when people genuinely feel like they are responsible to society, and they need to do the right thing. The strong moral foundation needs to be there, and especially in this role more so than other roles, to be able to make sure that it’s done right.

18:56 Susanna:  Definitely, I mean, everywhere, you have to have an ethics first mindset. You could sign millions of NDAs, but it still comes down to what you feel in your heart and how you have grown up and with what value systems that is more true, that is going to be stronger than an NDA, because nobody reads an NDA. So there is no point in writing a strong NDA, it only matters  how much we are building that relationship of trust and integrity into our citizens and our youth and leaders. But still, that being said, that does not get them off the hook, they should still come up with regulations for ethical hacking, especially during the pandemic.

19:40 Susanna:  As Sam mentioned, and I think we also had an internal document of research that I saw, there has been an increase in the need for Ethical Hacking during the pandemic because all of us moved to remote work. So during this time, when there is an increase, the market is wide open to a lot of people, and when there is a need and a demand, you don’t go through the same vetting process that you would in a normal circumstance – you just let in more people. So we all have been exposed to a lot of vulnerabilities that we are not even aware of now in the last two years. So it does not dissolve anyone from not having the responsibility to go after regulations.

20:31 Shilpi:  Even if you read an NDA, at the end of the day, if you want to do something wrong, there can be legal battles, you can have the fights, but the damage will be done, our  customer data can be misused, it can be sold on the dark web and once these things are done, yes, you can keep beating the snake, but the snake has gone right. So it’s no longer going to be there. So yes, all these fines and the ethics first mindset, being a good morally responsible person at the crux of it is the most important thing. 

21:09 Shilpi:  But on the other side, which is a little bit rosier, also background [?] that has built a whole business of crowdsourcing ethical hackers on a platform, they provide training and they come up with reports.

21:26 Shilpi:  They said that they estimated that $27 billion in cybersecurity costs were saved in investigation, remedy action and recovery incident investigation and recovery during the course of the pandemic. 

21:34 Shilpi:  And that’s how the CIA SOs were helped for big organizations, the CIA SOs and the CXOs, they were helped because of ethical hacking, that’s their report. So if $27 billion can be saved, and losses can be mitigated, then I think there is some truth to that story. 

22:07 Shilpi:  Yeah, I think it’s a good point, I think we’ve got to think about these organizations and just how much work goes on in the background. Really what you’re doing is you’re trying to protect – imagine you have your own organization, your own software, your own IP, you have to think about that, you have to think about – if that gets lost, what impact will that have on your operations and profitability?  So that’s always going to be in the back of their mind, right? Of the CXO and CIA SO.

22:45 Shilpi:  Yeah, it’s my neck on the line, right? Yeah, we have had this discussion before – even the CXOs, nowadays, if there is a breach, all they have to do is inform, so what they’ll do is send out an email saying ‘ We have had the security breach’ and they don’t even confirm that your data was stolen. It’s like, yes, there was a breach, and this many records were affected, and we don’t even know if your record was one of them, but it’s our duty to inform you. 

23:19 Shilpi:  So there’s this blanket, and we should have some regulation on that, so some more tighter measures need to be there, in governance it needs to be there in terms of laws. Just this blanket statement, and acknowledging that something has gone wrong is not enough. 

23:43 Shilpi:  Especially with the data of minors – they won’t even know that something has gone wrong until they become adults and they want to get into college, get a credit card, buy a new house, buy a new car, whatever that first buy is, their first car or their first house or whatever that may be – until that point they won’t even know.

24:05 Shilpi:  That identity for 10, 15, 20 years has been misused, and who knows what’s on it now. So those are the kinds of things that we need to think about a lot more when it comes to ethical hacking, or when it comes to cybersecurity. 

24:25 Shilpi:  Susanna touched upon this but there is this bigger topic about how the pandemic has affected this industry, the ethical hacking industry. What do you guys think? Has it exploded? Increased? Are there more ethical hackers in place? If so, why?

24:25 Sam:  I’m actually quite surprised at the numbers because, again, I was doing some reading of a couple reports, and I thought, well let me see just how much things have changed during COVID. And there has been quite a significant increase in the number of vulnerabilities that were found.

25:14 Sam:  I would have expected there to be a correlation between always working from home remotely, and the number of vulnerabilities that were spotted by ethical hackers, and there has been. I think they said something like 80%, more vulnerabilities are found that they’ve not seen even before the pandemic. 

25:30 Sam:  We’re working with our data a lot more at home, and obviously conversing online a lot more, and we’re not in the office, and it’s a completely different aspect isn’t it. It’s obviously a great industry to get into if you want to practice your craft and become a really successful ethical hacker, it’s a good time to practice. 

26:05 Shilpi:  Because of all these remote workforces, right? We’ve been confined to working from home, so all this stress testing that need not to happen also has to happen now – even if you have been given a computer, or a laptop, or a device from work, but still your internet connection, your setup of Wi Fi systems and all of that, how secure your system is internally, and how you’re connected to the office network, all of that plays an important role. From all parts of the world, people were stuck, and those who could be physically in one location are now not. So yes, all of this has impacted the rise and increase in cybersecurity crime. And the increase in crime has led to the increase in the ethical hacking industry where companies are feeling more and more vulnerable, and they want to make sure that they are protected before a bad element gets into their system. 

27:20 Susanna:  Yeah, this was somewhere in an article I read, that this was one of the largest stress tests on the internet, and the internet didn’t fail, but it revealed to us a lot of the vulnerabilities within that bandwidth itself, especially for online banking, medical doctors and medical institutions around the world had to scramble at the last minute to move to remote, interactions and interactive ways of seeing patients that were secure enough because they couldn’t use Zoom so they had to come up with their own apps. Those apps had to be developed overnight. You could be having a conversation with your doctor and they want to see something and you’re showing them – and imagine if that gets attacked or hacked and your video gets out on the web. Yeah, there was so much going on, and that’s why the need for hackers really shot up. But it’s a difficult time period we’re living in and so there are things that happened that we cannot even predict.

28:50 Shilpi:  This definitely is an important stream, and some ethical hackers have claimed to do this full time, or to do this part time, some of them say that any more it pays them more than any other job in the industry, and they can always work at home. Obviously, they have to put their ethics at the heart of it, but it is a viable career path these days. 

29:19 Shilpi:  So what are some of the skill sets according to you that are necessary? If I want to become an ethical hacker today, what are the skill sets I should look for to acquire?

29:29 Sam:  I think for a graduate or young trainee to go into the market now they need to have a range of coding skills as fundamental understanding. So, they’ll have to have some JavaScript and Python, some C sharp, maybe, and also SQL because each of those programming skills will then allow you to test those vulnerabilities in their software code. 

29:55 Sam:  Yeah, I think fundamental computing skills you need to know, and networking,  and you need to know how to build a computer in the hardware and software components, I think all those are really important in my view. So your hardware knowledge, definitely. And obviously networking, internal networking, and obviously wider area networks, things like that. And you’ve got to be persistent and be a problem solver. 

30:29 Susanna:  Yes, you definitely need technical skills, but I could give you an example of how you could become an ethical hacker and have zero technical skills – somebody found out that the router password on a satellite was set to the default, and that required no technical skills at all. All the router passwords have a default password, and somebody on a satellite didn’t even bother to change it, so that’s all; somebody found that out and they just informed them.

31:12 Susanna:  So you don’t really need a high technical skill, but you need to pay attention to details, and that’s why you need that outsider perspective because how matter how many times, it might be 10,000 times that you read an article you wrote but after you publish it you see, right there glaring in front of you, 10 stupid mistakes that you didn’t even see because we don’t have the ability to see it unless someone reads it for us.

31:48 Shilpi:  So this is very interesting, and I read somewhere that not only does the ethical hacking community consist of really young people, from 25 to 35, but it is also very ethnically diverse. 

32:06 Shilpi:  One of the powers includes communication, attention to detail and curiosity besides the technical skills, and they have to be digitally native, and that is basically what people between 25-35 are. They are ethnically diverse, they are digitally native and they are establishing their career at this time where the market is mostly insecure, so they have a great chance at succeeding at this.

32:40 Shilpi:  It’s also great for people with neurodiversity who have ADHD, or autism, because they already have attributes like memory skills, and they have heightened perception and attention to detail which means they would be great at this if it was something they wanted to pick up as a career.

33:07 Shilpi:  It’s a fast-paced environment that rewards creativity and difference in thinking and this could be a career path for them.

33:22 Shilpi:  So, has our conversation changed your perspective on ethical hacking and ethical hackers?

33:32 Sam:  I think so, for me definitely it’s been a really good discussion looking at just how much has changed this past couple of years and from a company’s perspective why it is so important. But also from what you and Susanna said, that it’s actually important that we have someone from the outside detecting those vulnerabilities, that’s something I’ve definitely learned from this evening.

33:56 Shilpi:  Yeah, definitely. How about you Susanna, did we help change your first impression?

34:04 Susanna:  Yeah definitely, especially the neurodiverse population, they don’t crave external attention that much so they really need a task they can focus on and they give focused attention to detail, because details are something that we may get bored with but they don’t, they find it very interesting and stimulating, and they don’t’ do very well with external people who are talking and chatting and all of those things. 

34:37 Susanna:  So that helps them focus on this type of task and since it pays well, that’s a good idea.

34:42 Shilpi:   Awesome, yeah I learned a lot as well. Coming up with this topic, I did some research and this helped me learn and understand and change my perspective too. Even though I knew ethical hacking existed I didn’t know much about it, or that it has become mainstream. There are certifications now available for it, there’s crowdsourcing platforms available for it. 

35:09 Shilpi:  Of course, we talked about the ethics bounty system last week which was parallel to this conversations which means that once you hire ethical hackers, whether inside the company or outside the company, then you give a reward as a bounty to people who are able to find those vulnerabilities for you, so it helps them and it helps you.

35:34 Shilpi:  Yeah so ethical hacking, and ethics bounty systems, these are all great conversations, and with so much technology and it’s problems, if we are going to think about ways to solve these challenges in really creative ways I think that we’re going in the right direction.